What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories more legit than the others around the world?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/20/2009 10:03:18 PM
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schtumpy
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Because the One True God said so.
Same answer you'd get on an Islamic site.
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I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/20/2009 10:15:03 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
Because the One True God said so.
Same answer you'd get on an Islamic site.
I suspect I'll get that answer, but I just wanted to start a thread.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 12:50:04 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shabbat shalom, StephenJ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
Pretty straight forward question.
Examples of creation stories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_Stories
Examples of flood stories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_story
Thanks for responding.
Because of informational thermodynamics and the transferral, whether verbal or written, getting farther and farther from the Source. It IS better to go back to the Source, YHVH, the One and ONLY God. All "El," "Elohiym," and "Allah" mean is the "High One." "Lord" or "Adonai" is merely a title meaning "Master." Even "El Elyon" means only the "God of gods" or the "Highest of the high ones," but HIS NAME is "YHVH." He IS different than the rest; He created human beings; human beings created all the other gods.
Rom 1:18-25
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
KJV
So, we go back to the people who were closest to God--the Israelites--not because they were anyone special in and of themselves, but because it was GOD'S preference to choose a people who could bear the genetic structure for the body He would prepare for His Son, Yeshua`. He loved them for His OWN reasons!
Deut 32:1-9
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
KJV
It is not irrational to believe that there is but ONE GOD, nor is it irrational to suggest that the ONE GOD has but ONE PLAN for human beings! Consider the first and second commandments in Exodus 20:
Ex 20:1-6
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV
Consider these words, which the Jews call the "Shema":
Deut 6:4-9
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
KJV
Then, pay close attention to the words that follow:
Deut 6:10-15
10 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not,
11 And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;
12 Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
KJV
He has already proven Himself time and time again: In the plagues of Egypt, in the parting of the Red Sea, in the slapping back of the Red Sea, killing all the Egyptians who followed them, in preserving the children of Isra'el through the wilderness to that point, in speaking to them DIRECTLY from the Mount Sinai, in the mountain being on fire, in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, in the brightness of His glory on the mountain and on Moshe's face when he came down from the mountain, God had shown that He was FAR more than just a statue of wood or rock or iron that could neither see nor hear nor help when they had need! He will not cater to ANYONE! He will not answer to you or to any who question Him! It is HE who will be the Judge of all mankind! We will answer to HIM!
So, YES! Absolutely! I will believe 100% in the literal words of Genesis chapters 1 through 9 (in the Hebrew language) as well as the rest of the Bible.
Show me one other god who could ever do so much!
Furthermore, those of Islam do NOT hold to the same God! First, their god is not a god of love as is OUR God! "Allah is merciful," but he is never ONCE said to love! In Islam, they see their god as more a universal force, than a person! AND, they say their god has never had a son! They hold Yeshua` as a "great prophet," but to them, He is NOT the Son of God AS HE CLAIMED HE WAS! Their god is a god of war and of torture. He is a god that is truly NOT so merciful, if he "commands" (through his prophets and leaders) to "mercilessly destroy the infidels!" Does that sound like a god you'd like to follow? Would you like to be forced to bow to god like that? He's NOT the same as our God!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 3:11:09 AM
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schtumpy
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I never said Islam held to the same God, Roy.
Merely that the answer to the question would be the same if answered by a Moslem.
Because the One True God said so.
And he would answer as enthusiastically from the Koran as you have just done from the Bible.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 3:52:09 AM
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tacitus
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For creationists the answer is simple, because it's in the Bible, plain as day. And, they claim, that if you cannot trust one part of the Bible to be true, then you cannot trust any of it, hence even the Resurrection is untrustworthy, and thus is you don't believe Noah's Flood happened as stated in the Bible then you have no basis upon which to affirm your Christian faith. QED.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 8:07:53 AM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
For creationists the answer is simple, because it's in the Bible, plain as day. And, they claim, that if you cannot trust one part of the Bible to be true, then you cannot trust any of it, hence even the Resurrection is untrustworthy, and thus is you don't believe Noah's Flood happened as stated in the Bible then you have no basis upon which to affirm your Christian faith. QED.
Not necessarily true.
Those of us that HAVE questioned what we have read have come across a few transcriptional errors. King's age, number of people in a certain area, etc. However, we still believe that the doctrine is accurate.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 1:33:49 PM
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StephenJ
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Well I mean technically some of the other flood stories in the Black sea/ Middle Eastern area are technically older or were recorded before Genesis was written according to historians and anthropologist (the epic of Gilgamesh I believe is.)
Of course there are many who believe a large Black Sea flood inspired all of these accounts.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 5:06:40 PM
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tacitus
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Flooding can be an awe-inspiring and devastating event even on a local scale, and they happen frequently enough in enough places for the story of Noah's Flood to have enough resonance with enough people for it to take hold, even without some ancestral memory of a regional flood like the one that happened with the Black Sea. The Egyptians constructed much of their mythology around the regular, expected seasonal flooding of the river Nile, so imaging how impactful they are when they come out of the blue to destroy a whole community.
Even today, people are quick to attribute the devastation caused by well explained natural phenomena like hurricanes (Katrina) and tidal waves (Indian Ocean) to the wrath of God, so how much more easily must those who lived before science explained these events have attributed their suffering and loss to supernatural causes.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/21/2009 9:14:48 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
Flooding can be an awe-inspiring and devastating event even on a local scale, and they happen frequently enough in enough places for the story of Noah's Flood to have enough resonance with enough people for it to take hold, even without some ancestral memory of a regional flood like the one that happened with the Black Sea. The Egyptians constructed much of their mythology around the regular, expected seasonal flooding of the river Nile, so imaging how impactful they are when they come out of the blue to destroy a whole community.
Even today, people are quick to attribute the devastation caused by well explained natural phenomena like hurricanes (Katrina) and tidal waves (Indian Ocean) to the wrath of God, so how much more easily must those who lived before science explained these events have attributed their suffering and loss to supernatural causes.
This is true, and when you consider that most of the worlds major civilizations developed around large bodies of water (like the ocean, the Nile, or the Tigris/Euphrates), or even places that experience heavy rainfall you don't need a global flood to get many diffrent flood tales around the world.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/22/2009 8:23:13 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Because of informational thermodynamics and the transferral, whether verbal or written, getting farther and farther from the Source. Outstanding response, Roy. Such a shame it has fallen on blind eyes! So many here so easily mistake human zeal for real Truth... 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/23/2009 8:04:31 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Well how do we know the same can't be true for the early part of Genesis? It was written down hundreds if not thousands of years after the alleged events happened.At the earliest Moses (who tradition says wrote down the Torah) lived in the 17th century B.C. The Book of Genesis was collated and edited by Moses (under divine inspiration, of course). So how do you know these historical narrative accounts were not written down almost in real-time and preserved through the genealogic line? In fact, the ten toledoths of Genesis all refer specifically to the prominent human figure in each. Except the first which was apparently directly communicated by God as He was the sole Eyewitness to those events.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/23/2009 11:55:44 AM
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StephenJ
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Well I'm saying why couldn't the same kind of drift that happens with other legends happen in this case?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/23/2009 3:07:27 PM
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tacitus
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I believe he's saying that the account was preserved intact through miraculous intervention -- in other words, God did it. As always, that ends all debate right there.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/24/2009 12:37:33 PM
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PolarBear
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Simple. ONLY the Bible specifically and repeatedly affirms that the universe had a beginning in space and time, that it was and still is being continually stretched out (11 references in the Prophets), and that time itself has a beginning. That is exactly what big bang cosmology and general relativity teach. Plus, ONLY the God described in the Bible, of all the gods in world religions, is described as being transcendent to space and time*. He alone could be the source of the big bang.
The Bible also accurately predicts other scientific discoveries, for example that the laws that govern the heavens are fixed (Jer 33:25). Remarkably, it accurately described the conditions of early earth as modern planetary formation theories would have them. Genesis 1:2 says that the earth 1) covered with darkness, 2) was covered with water, and 3) the Spirit did something incredible on the early earth (I think it is reasonable that this refers to His creation and care of the first life in the early oceans). See also Job 38:9, which says He "wrapped [the earth] in darkness". The darkness wasn't inherent to the universe at that point, but the earth had an opaque atmosphere that cleared up later (probably by the impact that formed the moon).
* OK, Allah of Islam could also be described in this way. But Islam has even bigger problems - it relies on the Bible being true but its message contradicts that of the Bible!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/24/2009 12:51:29 PM
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demolay
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Hey Stephen,
Have you looked at the history tab on those wiki pages you referenced? There's over 500 edits (the most they show), and the pages change almost daily (5 times since you posted this).
So how do you know that ANYTHING on these wiki pages are true? And if so, which of the hundreds of versions was it that had this truth?
Just asking.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/24/2009 1:41:25 PM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
Well I mean technically some of the other flood stories in the Black sea/ Middle Eastern area are technically older or were recorded before Genesis was written according to historians and anthropologist (the epic of Gilgamesh I believe is.)
Of course there are many who believe a large Black Sea flood inspired all of these accounts.
Many people think that the author of the Bible's flood story got his idea from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I don't think that this is true because there are some significant differences between the Bible's flood story and the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. According to the Epic of Gilgamesh, the flood came upon the earth because the people were making too much noise. According to the Biblical account, the flood came upon the earth because the people were sinning against God. According to the Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods were frightened when the flood came upon the earth. The God in the Biblical account was not terrified at all. The god, Ea, lies to Enlil in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The God in the Biblical account does not lie at all.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/24/2009 3:10:05 PM
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StephenJ
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I know Wikipedia can be edited over and over. I just used it because it's a site we're all familiar with.
Would you prefer another site? One of the mythological databases or something?
Let me add this, I know most of you aren't members of the LDS church but suppouse someone you knew was.
Imagine if you were to say to a Mormon.
"There is little to no evidence of an ancient Hebrew colony in the Americas. Outside of BYU and other LDS institutions most historians and archeologist regard the account as fictional, and of 19th century origin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon ( I know it's a Wikipedia page but stay with me)
And they were to respond.
"Well God directed the prophet Joseph Smith to those tablets, and through his angel Moroni revealed the story to him. That's what the holy scriptures say, that's what GOD says, so that's what I believe. He was there, you weren't."
And that's where the person ended the discussion, and allowed no other inquiry. Not only that, but they were pushing for this view to be apart of kids history text books, and serious academic circles? What would you think about this? What would you think about a movement that promoted this?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/25/2009 8:10:41 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
For creationists the answer is simple, because it's in the Bible, plain as day. And, they claim, that if you cannot trust one part of the Bible to be true, then you cannot trust any of it, hence even the Resurrection is untrustworthy, and thus is you don't believe Noah's Flood happened as stated in the Bible then you have no basis upon which to affirm your Christian faith. QED.
Truth and literalism aren't necessarily the same thing. Some readers of Genesis understand the six days of creation to refer to six phases of a process of creation, and some of those phases could have taken millions of years. Others say that the six days of creation were six days of twenty-four hours each. The person who understands the days to be figurative days is not necessarily denying the truth of any part of the Bible. But with this freedom of interpretation, the Bible can be reinterpreted to support almost any philosophical position that's desired.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/25/2009 10:33:44 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Except the first which was apparently directly communicated by God as He was the sole Eyewitness to those events.
dictionary def of "eyewitness:"
a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.
the only way God could be an eyewitness is if He was watching someone else creating the universe. or to put it another way, a robber is not an eyewitness to the robbery he committed.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/25/2009 10:38:10 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Truth and literalism aren't necessarily the same thing. Some readers of Genesis understand the six days of creation to refer to six phases of a process of creation, and some of those phases could have taken millions of years. Others say that the six days of creation were six days of twenty-four hours each. The person who understands the days to be figurative days is not necessarily denying the truth of any part of the Bible. But with this freedom of interpretation, the Bible can be reinterpreted to support almost any philosophical position that's desired.
i'd like to know how creationists here would explain the nephilim. they're supposed to be one of the main reasons the flood happened.
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Our faith is backed by history and science, so its hardly blind. Unlike our Morman friends, every archeological dig to "disprove the Bible" has actually ended up supporting the historicity of it. This has happened so many times, secular archeologists now read the Bible to try and determine where to dig.
