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The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 10/28/2008 4:57:53 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
Posts: 210
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The Morning Stars are the Seven Stars of the Seven Churches.
So who will be the Seven Lamps of the last days?
Revelation 1:20. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Revelation 2:1. To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
Revelation 3:1. To the angel of the church in Sardis write:These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
Job 3:9
May its Morning Stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,...
Job 3:9 is about "The Mount of The Congregation of Zion" being saved by Yahshua in the last days.
Job 38:7
while the Morning Stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Job 38:7 is talking about the people in The Kingdom of God.
Job 38
31 "Can you (bind prevent) the (beautiful twinkling of the (Pleiades Seven Stars?) Can you loose the cords of (Orion The Shepherd?)
32 Can you bring forth the (constellations Morning Stars) in their seasons or lead out the (Bear Satan)with its (cubs satans?) 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's (dominion kingdom) (over on) the earth?
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Isaiah 14:12 is about Israel who one laid low the nations around it. And it's self was destroyed in 133 AD.
2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Morning Star rises in your hearts.
2 Peter 1:19 is about Yahshua saving The Seven Stars (The Mount of The Congregation Zion) in the last days.
Revelation 2:28
just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give (appoint) him the (as a) Morning Star.
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and The Bright Morning Star."
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 10/30/2008 3:50:00 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 68
Joined: 5/3/2005
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Don't forget these references to stars of the end times.
Daniel 8-10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
12-3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 10/30/2008 11:07:13 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 437
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, MichaelTheeArchAngel.
Well, this list of verses is not very well linked. One should really be careful about the words in the original languages more than some translation into English. So, let's take this list one item at a time:
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
The Morning Stars are the Seven Stars of the Seven Churches.
So who will be the Seven Lamps of the last days?
Revelation 1:20. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Revelation 2:1. To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
Revelation 3:1. To the angel of the church in Sardis write:These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
Yochanan (John) had seven Messianic communities or congregations to whom he specifically addressed this communique'. If you will look at a map of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) that shows these towns of his time period, you would see that they follow a natural path going out northwest to Pergamum from the Isle of Patmos and back eastward to the rest. Some will contend that these communities represent seven ages down through the last 2000 years, but I reject that interpretation. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it make that connection.
Second, the Greek word aggelos TRANSLITERATED as "angel" should be TRANSLATED as "messenger." The seven stars of the mystery (secret) are the "messengers of the seven churches" as it is correctly translated in Rev. 1:20 above. Most likely, they were God's HUMAN messengers to each one of these communities. As such, we would probably call them "pastors" or "ministers" today. The seven golden menorahs or "lampstands" were the communities themselves.
Now, I don't know where you get your information, but to just make the statement, "The Morning Stars are the Seven Stars of the Seven Churches," without backing it up is irresponsible. Perhaps you're attempting to paint this picture from this list of verses, but you need to make the argument first and then draw your conclusion. In any case, the "stars" here (Greek: asteres) are not the same as the "morning star" (Greek: ton astera ton prooinon) given to the overcomers in Thuateirois (Thyatira).
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Job 3:9
May its Morning Stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,...
Job 3:9 is about "The Mount of The Congregation of Zion" being saved by Yahshua in the last days.
No, Iyov (Job) here is bemoaning and cursing the day that he was born and he is saying poetically that the night when he was born should have its stars (khowkhveiy) blotted out! Furthermore, the word "Morning" was SUPPLIED by the translator of whatever version you are using. It's not there in the Hebrew text. This particular verse has nothing to do with '"The Mount of The Congregation of Zion" being saved by Yahshua in the last days.' Where'd that come from?!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Job 38:7
while the Morning Stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Job 38:7 is talking about the people in The Kingdom of God.
Now, this is an interesting interpretation of a frequently misused verse! Most equate the "Morning Stars" with angels, while you said they are the "people in The Kingdom of God." The context must be considered for this verse for both of these interpretations.
The context is YHVH answering Iyov by giving him a little test. He asked him some questions that he would not be able to answer or would not be able to answer in the affirmative, and fired them at him in rapid succession! "Who is THIS who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?! Now tighten your belt like a man: I will question you, and you shall answer Me!
"Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding!
"Who determined its measurements? Surely you know!
"Or, who stretched a line upon it?
"Into what were its sockets sunk?
"Or, who laid the capstone of its angle [finishing it off], when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
"Or, who shut in the sea with valves, when it had burst forth and issued from the womb, when I made the clouds its robe, and thick darkness its bandaging cloth;
"When I fixed My limit for it, and set bolts and doors;
"When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, and here your proud waves must stop!'?
Some say this is the context of the Creation, but with certain hints, we can deduce that this is really talking about the re-creation of the earth after the Flood of Noach's day. First, the sea (a large body of water) had burst forth (see Gen. 7:10-12) and had to be contained (see Gen. 8:1-3). Clouds were mentioned but there was no rain in the original Creation and only a mist rose up to water the face of the ground (Gen. 2:4-6). Clouds weren't mentioned until Gen. 9:13-16. Furthermore, when God fixed a limit for the sea and its proud waves, that would be talking about a continental shelf! These, too, had to be re-established after the Flood.
Now, having established the time frame of what YHVH is describing, we may now look at these "morning stars" and "angels" in the right context: The term "morning stars" are just that (Hebrew: kowkhveiy boqer) and may actually refer to "angels" in this context; however, to do so must employ symbolism through a metaphor because the words are literally "morning stars!" On the other hand, the other term, "sons of God" (Hebrew: b'neiy Elohiym), does NOT refer to "angels!" Your text has again PRESUMED the phrase to mean "angels!" It can be shown that at NO time in the Scriptures does the term "sons of God" refer to angels; they are always justified men (and women). HOWEVER, AT NO TIME does this passage talk about either of these groups as the "people in the Kingdom of God!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Job 38
31 "Can you (bind prevent) the (beautiful twinkling of the (Pleiades Seven Stars?) Can you loose the cords of (Orion The Shepherd?)
32 Can you bring forth the (constellations Morning Stars) in their seasons or lead out the (Bear Satan)with its (cubs satans?) 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's (dominion kingdom) (over on) the earth?
YHVH is still questioning Iyov and the wording is actually closer to...
"Can you tie up the cluster of Kiymah?
Or loose the belts of K'ciyl?
Can you make the Mazzarot to come in time?
Or can you guide `Ayish with his sons?"
"Kiymah" is the "Pleiades" or the "Seven Sisters" OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY, but "kiymah" means "jewels." "K'ciyl" means "prominent" or "fat" and does refer to the prominent constellation of Orion, but Orion was NOT a "shepherd"; he was a "hunter!" The "Mazzarot" is the Hebrew name for the zodiac and is specifically the twelve constellations of the sun's ecliptic. But, "`Ayish" is what we call the "Big Dipper" or the "Great Bear," but have you ever seen a "bear" with such a long tail?! Actually, a crouching Lion, ready to spring, is a better description of the constellation, and his sons are the "Little Dipper" or the "Little Bear" (again a "Little Lion") and "Leo Minor" (which is Latin for "Little Lion").
I take it you've never seen the "Death Meridian" in the night sky, have you? Did you know that this line drawn from Polaris to the southern pole will pass from the tip of the tail of the "Little Bear" or "Ursa Minor," through the jaws of the "Dragon" or "Draco" biting the heal of the "Hero" or "Hercules," through the "chained servant" or "Ophiucus" holding the "serpent" or "Serpens" who is being stung in the heal by the "Scorpion" or "Scorpio", and through the "Altar" or "Ara." "Draco" also separates "Ursa Major" from "Ursa Minor," and the whole night sky in the northern hemisphere revolves around "Ursa Minor's" tail star, Polaris! The "Hero" or "Hercules" is holding three serpents in his left hand while clubbing them over their heads with his right!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Isaiah 14:12 is about Israel who one laid low the nations around it. And it's self was destroyed in 133 AD.
Where do you come up with this stuff?! I agree that Yesha`yahu's mention of "Morning Star" is not about "Lucifer" aka haSatan, "the Enemy," but "ISRA'EL?" No, from context, the passage is about the king of Bavel (Babylon)! How in the world did you transfer that to Isra'el?!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Morning Star rises in your hearts.
2 Peter 1:19 is about Yahshua saving The Seven Stars (The Mount of The Congregation Zion) in the last days.
??? Now, how in the world did you come up with THAT?!
Look at it again:
2 Peter 1:1-21
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (This is a reference to Matt. 16:28-17:9; Mark 9:1-9; and Luke 9:27-36, the transfiguration!)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV
Shimown Kefa (Simon "Cephas" Peter) is lamenting the fact that he will be dying soon before the Lord returns, because the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Lord Jesus Christ) showed that fact to him. He said, that they had not "followed cunningly devised fables." They weren't just believing and acting on a fantasy! They were EYE-WITNESSES of Yeshua`s majesty! They heard the words from the bright cloud, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"! Then Kefa said, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." In other words, they should listen to this "sure word of prophecy" LIKE paying attention to a light in a dark place until the day breaks and the "day star" (Greek: foosforos = "light carrier" i.e., the sun) rises in your hearts! Don't try to make the verse fit your philosophical system; try to UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WRITER IS SAYING! It works MUCH better!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Revelation 2:28
just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give (appoint) him the (as a) Morning Star.
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and The Bright Morning Star."
Revelation 2:28 uses the Greek words "ton astera ton prooinon" literally meaning "the star the dawn" or "the dawn star." This is a reference to Yeshua Himself, for in Revelation 22:16, He is called "the Root of Daviyd" and "the Offspring of Daviyd" and "the Bright Morning Star (Greek: ho asteer ho lampros ho prooinos = "the star the bright the dawn" or "the bright dawn star").
Let's stick to the Scriptures, okay? Don't try to make a case that isn't there.
Retrobyter
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 11/15/2008 2:00:08 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
Posts: 210
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
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During the time that John wrote Revelation there where many more churches than those seven churches. The seven are parabolic to a future event.
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 11/15/2008 2:05:07 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
Posts: 210
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Don't forget these references to stars of the end times.
Daniel 8-10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
12-3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
In scripture the word heaven is also applied to mean the earth. The last one is a good example of the word "star" being used to mean people.
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 11/15/2008 2:25:17 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 437
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, MTAA.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
During the time that John wrote Revelation there where many more churches than those seven churches. The seven are parabolic to a future event.
Of course there were, but these were the seven to whom he was told to write and they were just across the bay from the island on which he was exiled.
I can imagine him gazing across the water to the northeast and wishing he could see his loved ones in each of those seven congregations.
On the other hand, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT THESE SEVEN WERE TO BE SEEN AS "PARABOLIC TO A FUTURE EVENT!" That is simply the vain imaginations of human beings; it has no foundation within the text!
Retrobyter
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 11/15/2008 2:29:48 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 437
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, MTAA.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Don't forget these references to stars of the end times.
Daniel 8-10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
12-3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
In scripture the word heaven is also applied to mean the earth. The last one is a good example of the word "star" being used to mean people.
Do you understand what the word "as" means? This is a simile! Just as those who are wise shall shine LIKE the brightness of the daytime sky, they will also turn many to righteousness (equity) LIKE the stars [are bright] for ever and ever [in the nighttime sky]! Quit trying to make a mountain out of a molehill!
Retrobyter
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RE: The Morning Stars of the Bible. - 11/15/2008 4:43:49 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
Posts: 210
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
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So do you think parables should be taken literally. Who do you think those seven are, spoken of in Revelation?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, MTAA.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Don't forget these references to stars of the end times.
Daniel 8-10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
12-3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
In scripture the word heaven is also applied to mean the earth. The last one is a good example of the word "star" being used to mean people.
Do you understand what the word "as" means? This is a simile! Just as those who are wise shall shine LIKE the brightness of the daytime sky, they will also turn many to righteousness (equity) LIKE the stars [are bright] for ever and ever [in the nighttime sky]! Quit trying to make a mountain out of a molehill!
Retrobyter
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