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NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 12:05:37 AM
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TMeeks
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I know the election is over. I know Obama has won. I know that it has not been proven that he has used Conversational Hypnosis or NLP beyond a shadow of a doubt.
But, you have to admit that his candidacy, the media fawning, the adulation and the blowout were so different in this election that it bears some thought if something extra-normal was going on.
The reason that I am starting THIS thread is that not only does it so starkly show the power of NLP (Neurol-Linguistic-Programming), it also shows HOW it was done in a particular setting. It shows how EASY it is to make a person believe that you are giving them what they've always wanted with the single techniques of pacing and leading.
Please watch this video.
Even if you think that Obama could not POSSIBLY be using such techniques, I want you to understand that sooner or later a leader will come that WILL use the techniques and as a Christian, you should be aware that if you are not careful and watchful, you too could fall for them just as easily as the next person.
And, just in case you think that it would be very, very hard to fool you, watch the following video
When Red is Black
While it may appear to be all fun and games in these video, we could be talking some very serious and dangerous stuff here if a leader actually knew and used these techniques.
This goes well beyond an election and into the life and commitment of the people of our country.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 7:20:52 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2343
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NLP is nothing that a good quality AFDB (Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie) can't save you from. It is highly recommended that you make it yourself. I recommend Reynold's Wrap, only the best.
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 7:34:17 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
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TMeeks,
There is one thing wrong with yoour theory. I noticed in the two links you had that there was a lot of touching involved inn this NLP thing. It seemed to be a very important key part of it. Obama did not touch everyone who voted for him.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 7:59:42 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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Very cute. But, not very smart.
I wonder how many clever little Christians became nice little NAZI's under Hitler's mezmerizing speeches. And, I wonder why if this is why existing Christians will be taken out before the Anti-Christ appears. (If one is Pre-Trib in belief)
But, make no mistake, those who are left in the World and are the 'elect' of that period WILL understand the deceptive power of the Anti-Christ and be wary of his techniques to deceive.
Waking up to the way our minds work is the first step. Knowing that our minds can and are suseptible to manipulation is the second. Remember Patty Hearst? (Hmmm... Probably not because you were just a baby then.) She underwent a process by where she became the victim of the Stockholm Syndrome in which the captive becomes sympathetic to the captors. Our minds can and do play tricks on the unwary.
Count yourself among the unwary... at least for now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
NLP is nothing that a good quality AFDB (Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie) can't save you from. It is highly recommended that you make it yourself. I recommend Reynold's Wrap, only the best.
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 8:33:33 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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That is only in these examples... which were based on NLP All he is doing is providing 'triggers' and in this case they are by touching. Conversational Hypnosis, which therapists use every day, uses nothing more than words and gestures to accomplish the same or similar results.
There is one thing wrong in YOUR theory. My 'theory' is an every day fact in psychiatric offices all over the world and under shaman religions around the globe. Ignorance, in this case, is dangerous and deadly.
It is in practice and being decpetively used by sellers, New Age 'gurus' and even in so-called 'Christian awakenings' that finally collapse under their own errors. While touch can be and is a part of the scam, it is not a requirement.
All I am saying is that we should be aware of deception for it it can be practiced on a large scale then it WILL be practiced on a large scale. And, we know that because the Anti-Christ, in the last days will fool virtually the entire world in some way. Perhaps THIS is the way.
Moreover, those that think they are immune are probably the ones most likely to be victimized.
I know that you and other 'clever' people out there think I'm some looney. But, I can guarantee that you have probably not come close to the life experiences that I have behind me and look forward to in the future. I've done and seen things that when I describe them ends up having people call me a liar.
I've worked directly with people like Nolan Bushnell, the founder of Atari. I've been invited to parties like the bash at Studio 54 for Arnold Schwarzenegger and a private 'writers party for Isaak Isimov. I can call up the CEO of Hasbro and get through. Michael Dell, personally, replaced a notebook that was never fixed by the normal repair channel. I may have been one of the last TV crews, in the US, to videotape Anwar Sadat before he was killed when he was presented the Prince of Peace award. And, I designed what is probably the first professional Desktop Video Application for a PC sold through JVC, the Japense electronics Giant.
Today, most of my work is for national and international military organizations and U.S. departments like FAA and NASA.
I am NOT some crackpot that is just whistling at the wind.
At the moment, I am trying to determine if our new president has been and may use deceptive means to gain power over people. While not completely definitive, right now the evidence is that he may have been at points in this election cycle. If that is true, and more needs to be studied in this regard, then it should be something that intelligent, perceptive people keep an eye on.
But, of course, I know that most people live a life of mediocrity, laissez faire and Que Sera Sera (What will be will be). They are those that despots count on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
TMeeks,
There is one thing wrong with yoour theory. I noticed in the two links you had that there was a lot of touching involved inn this NLP thing. It seemed to be a very important key part of it. Obama did not touch everyone who voted for him.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 9:19:58 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
That is only in these examples... which were based on NLP All he is doing is providing 'triggers' and in this case they are by touching. Conversational Hypnosis, which therapists use every day, uses nothing more than words and gestures to accomplish the same or similar results.
I have worked in the mental health field and have had training in NLP, EMDR and several other pseudoscientific "methods". Salesmanship is not hypnosis nor particularly devious. Many people are easily swayed by emotional and dramatic appeal. That's what performers do. That's what salesmen do.
Antichrist-elect Obama has the smooth moves that Clinton and Reagan had. It's neither demonic or rocket science.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 9:21:55 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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TMeeks - HIYA!!! ok please tell me what does Scripture say about NLP?
Can a true born again christian be subjected to NLP?
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 9:55:19 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
TMeeks - HIYA!!! ok please tell me what does Scripture say about NLP?
Can a true born again christian be subjected to NLP?
Sure, except its called FOF.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 12:11:31 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2343
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
But, make no mistake, those who are left in the World and are the 'elect' of that period WILL understand the deceptive power of the Anti-Christ and be wary of his techniques to deceive.
It's obvious that the moderator wears an AFDB (aluminum foil deflector beanie) because this topic just got sent to the area reserved for Bigfoot and Little Green Men which is where it belongs. ; )
quote:
Antichrist-elect Obama has the smooth moves that Clinton and Reagan had. It's neither demonic or rocket science.
Come on guys Obama is NOT the anti-christ that would be Bill Clinton. I know because I was there for 1992 and heard all of the moaning sobbing and wailing when Bill Clinton won(and actually took part in it). Perhaps Obama is the Pontificus Maximus guy mentioned in the Left Behind books???
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 4:58:30 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I wonder how many clever little Christians became nice little NAZI's under Hitler's mezmerizing speeches. And, I wonder why if this is why existing Christians will be taken out before the Anti-Christ appears. (If one is Pre-Trib in belief)
I beg to differ with you about Hitler. I have listened to Hitler's speeches. On the surface they are not very good, but they are full of emotion. People accepted and followed him because of the real change and hope that he offered Germany at a time that it had been crushed almost into non-existence. He spoke how great the country was and that it was destined for greatness.
Not only did he spoke of change, but he showed he could deliver it. Two characteristics that I would argue Obama lacks (speaking possitively about America and showing that he can deliver the channge he promises).
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 10:27:16 PM
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TMeeks
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There is a difference between Demon Possession, etc. and NLP or even mainline hypnosis.
I do not believe that a Christian, meaning one that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit can be demon possessed. But, all of us know that even though the Holy Spirit has joined us in a special way, any one of us can be deceived from time to time.
In fact, we see Christians falling under false teachings all the time. And, since there are only two forces at work in the world one is either influenced by God or Satan in the grand scheme of things.
We live in fallen bodies and the primary interface between the Holy Spirit and our daily lives seems to go through the physical organ we call a BRAIN. As long as we are in these bodies, even our 'spiritual' growth is linked to the health of our brains.
NLP and Conversational Hypnotism work at the PHYSICAL level of the brain and not the spiritual level. Although, they could be used to implant atitudes and thoughts that would then affect spiritual choices. For instance, if Obama could convince you that not only do you NEED him to fulfill some HOPE or DREAM in your life; but, that he is the ONLY one that can fulfill that, then one might make the choice for Obama in SPITE of clear indications that he also stands for some unBiblical policies like abortion.
Perhaps it's no accident that so many Christians put aside their personal stand on abortion to vote for him. If I remember correctly, there is even a thread asking the question, "Is Abortion a Dead Issue?"
These are PHYSICAL/MENTAL decisions that FILTER how we react. And, I believe that Christians are as susceptible to this kind of manipulation as anyone else at the PHYSICAL BRAIN LEVEL. Do they live in the FLESH? Or, do they live in the SPIRIT. THAT is the deciding factor, I believe.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
TMeeks - HIYA!!! ok please tell me what does Scripture say about NLP?
Can a true born again christian be subjected to NLP?
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 10:30:40 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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Are you a native German speaker? If not, then your analysis is probably not worth a whole lot.
Eve if you KNEW German and could listen in the original language, your reaction and your brain's processing mechanisms would NOT be the same as those living in post WWI Germany.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I wonder how many clever little Christians became nice little NAZI's under Hitler's mezmerizing speeches. And, I wonder why if this is why existing Christians will be taken out before the Anti-Christ appears. (If one is Pre-Trib in belief)
I beg to differ with you about Hitler. I have listened to Hitler's speeches. On the surface they are not very good, but they are full of emotion. People accepted and followed him because of the real change and hope that he offered Germany at a time that it had been crushed almost into non-existence. He spoke how great the country was and that it was destined for greatness.
Not only did he spoke of change, but he showed he could deliver it. Two characteristics that I would argue Obama lacks (speaking possitively about America and showing that he can deliver the channge he promises).
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 10:42:15 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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This is EXACTLY the reaction that will permeat society when the Anti-Christ requires all to wear the symbol of the Beast. Those who take the time and have the insight into what is happening are going to ridiculed unmercifully and, if they are on the internet, they will receive posts like yours joking about it.
It's too bad that the moderators decided to put this thread in here. What it demonstrates to me is that it will be next to impossible to warn people of the grave danger they are in during the last days because not even those who SHOULD care actually do.
So, I'll sit here and play the fool if that is where this message is going to be consigned. The scorn and laughs of my fellow posters mean absolutely NOTHING to me if I believe I am pursuing the truth and finding it. I'm still exploring and haven't come to any definitive position; but, at some point I will. In the meantime, check out the posts talking about how Brokaw and Rose still hadn't figured out who the REAL Obama was!
It's almost like the guy that took the blank money for the ring in the video clips of this thread. They've FINALLY blinked, realized that they hadn't been handed the real goods and walked out the door looking for the guy that gave them those blank sheets of paper!!!
Interesting, isn't it?
It's also interesting that you make the assumption that I think Obama is the anti-Christ. That's complete false and it's a read herring. I simply think that Obama is SO ambitious and SO dedicated to his leftist agenda that he was willing to TRY and DO anything to get elected. That is a FAR cry from believing that he is the anti-Christ of the last days.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
But, make no mistake, those who are left in the World and are the 'elect' of that period WILL understand the deceptive power of the Anti-Christ and be wary of his techniques to deceive.
It's obvious that the moderator wears an AFDB (aluminum foil deflector beanie) because this topic just got sent to the area reserved for Bigfoot and Little Green Men which is where it belongs. ; )
quote:
Antichrist-elect Obama has the smooth moves that Clinton and Reagan had. It's neither demonic or rocket science.
Come on guys Obama is NOT the anti-christ that would be Bill Clinton. I know because I was there for 1992 and heard all of the moaning sobbing and wailing when Bill Clinton won(and actually took part in it). Perhaps Obama is the Pontificus Maximus guy mentioned in the Left Behind books???
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/7/2008 10:55:51 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 10:52:37 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
Joined: 1/27/2007
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If you are going to comment, at least be rational. I have NOT called Obama the Anti-Christ.
I have simply stated that it is possible that he is using Conversational Hypnosis and some form of NLP to win over people in a way that may not be ethical.
Tell us, is hypnosis used in ANY therapy by at least a PORTION of mainstream psychiatrists?
If so, why?
Now, it's important for me to mention my reservations about using hypnosis for ANY reason for a Christian. The reason being that it bypasses the normal truth-gate of the brain and inserts thoughts into the brain without any means of making value judgements on the thought.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I have worked in the mental health field and have had training in NLP, EMDR and several other pseudoscientific "methods". Salesmanship is not hypnosis nor particularly devious. Many people are easily swayed by emotional and dramatic appeal. That's what performers do. That's what salesmen do.
Antichrist-elect Obama has the smooth moves that Clinton and Reagan had. It's neither demonic or rocket science.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/7/2008 11:12:23 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Are you a native German speaker? If not, then your analysis is probably not worth a whole lot.
Eve if you KNEW German and could listen in the original language, your reaction and your brain's processing mechanisms would NOT be the same as those living in post WWI Germany.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I wonder how many clever little Christians became nice little NAZI's under Hitler's mezmerizing speeches. And, I wonder why if this is why existing Christians will be taken out before the Anti-Christ appears. (If one is Pre-Trib in belief)
I beg to differ with you about Hitler. I have listened to Hitler's speeches. On the surface they are not very good, but they are full of emotion. People accepted and followed him because of the real change and hope that he offered Germany at a time that it had been crushed almost into non-existence. He spoke how great the country was and that it was destined for greatness.
Not only did he spoke of change, but he showed he could deliver it. Two characteristics that I would argue Obama lacks (speaking possitively about America and showing that he can deliver the channge he promises).
I may not be a native born German, or understand German all that much but from all that I have heard, rad, and seen about the history of the world and Germany from the 1920s to 1945, I am well aware that that Hitler's influence had more to do with historic events and thinking of the time, his charismat, and the people who gathered around Hitler than any hypnosis of any kind, shape, or form.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 11:53:57 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
I may not be a native born German, or understand German all that much but from all that I have heard, rad, and seen about the history of the world and Germany from the 1920s to 1945, I am well aware that that Hitler's influence had more to do with historic events and thinking of the time, his charismat, and the people who gathered around Hitler than any hypnosis of any kind, shape, or form.
To dismiss, out of hand, the nature of Hitler's hold over his people, without being a native German speaker is to completely misunderstand the nature and workings of conversational hypnosis.
Historical events certainly payed a part in his ability to gain power. But, it does not explain the irrational adoration for a relatively ungifted man.
Conversational hypnosis works because the brain processes incoming linguistic messages in a particular way with our native speech patterns. Translations or second language listeners would process the linguistic patterns a completely different way. In fact, in an earlier message, I pointed out that we, as English speaking listeners, are NEVER mesmorized by Hitler and yet, we can see in images of his speeches the obvious adoration of his GERMAN listeners.
So, you have no basis at all, in your limited experience either in liguistics, German or hypnosis in general on which to base you view. It came out of thin air and empty conjecture.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 12:54:09 PM
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leonfigg3
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If, in your book, mass hypnosis by Hitler played such a large part in his rise to power, how does hypnosis explain the rise to power of such men as Churchill, Stalin, FDR, Mussolin, adn Hirohito. Could it be, that because of the chaotic times that existed at the time, these people rose to power due more to their wollingness to do whatever it took to get their country and the world out of the mess that it had become, than some excuse like hypnosis that somemone "pulled out of thin air"?
How does your view of mass hypnosis explain the holocaust in which 6 million plus Jews, and 6 million plus non-Jews were killed in death camps?
I am a student of history, not linguistics or hypnosis. Never claimed to be, nor do I ever plan to be. In fact all I really know of hypnosis is that no matter how deep a person has been "hypnotized" it is very unlikely that he can be made to do something that he knows to be morally wrong.
What happened in Germany and the world between 1920 and 1945 happened because people made choices of their own free will.
No where in my reading of Hitler or the Third Reich was there any mention either Hitler, or any Nazis being remotely interested in hypnosis. I have read where Hitler was a master of letting people believe they were using him, all the while he was using them.
People were drawn to Hitler because of his nationalism and his ideas on how Germany and the Aryrain race were destined for greatness, despite the way that the World War I allies had treated them, their government betrayed them, and the Jews (escaping communism) from Russia took advantage of them and sold them out.
Note-Please do not get the impression that I am some kind of neo-Nazis, or skinhead. I just happened to find the 1920s-1945 a very fascinating period of history. The world seemed to change a great deal in a relatively short period of time, and gave rise to many of the conflicts and changes still going on today.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 3:28:48 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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THe U.S. Archives hold some documents that may show that Hitler was actually hypnotized to treat him for the psychosis that he endured from being gased in WWI. Here is an abstract from the Journal of Forensic Sciences that at least give a brief intro to topic.
Here is a quote by a Polish Army Officer that died in 1946 that asked the question as to the source of Hitler's power.
After WWI. Hitler spent a great deal of time studying means of controlling 'the masses'. One of the books that he apparently relied upon so much that he used them in Mein Kampf was by Le Bon, who wrote about crowd hypnosis.
I think if you did deeper you will find, as I have, that there are more links between Hitler and the practice of hypnosis than you are willing to admit. And, the reasons for being unwilling have more to do with politics than fact.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 8:51:19 PM
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leonfigg3
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I GET IT. You are a big believer in the power of hypnosis. I am not.
We are talking about our differing interpretations of history from two different points of view. Points of view that, I may conceed, are EQUALLY valid, and EQUALLY able to explain why and how things happened as they did.
As far as you proving a connection between hypnosis and an individual's rise to power (Hitler, Obama) you are going to have to go a little further than trying to make some kind of connectiion between a person's reading interests to what he believes and does. The same kind of connection could be made between between a person's choice of music to what he believes and does. (Hitler's favorite composer, I believe, was Wagner, another German nationalist).
What does Hitler's drug use have to do with hypnosis?
How does Hitler's "hypnotic power" explain all that happened in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s?
What does Hitler's "hypnotic power" have to do with the desire for peace at any cost on the part of England, France, the United States, and Russia in the early days of World War II?
How is one person's attrempt to pass the buck and absolve himself of responsibility for his actions, and decisions proof of Hitler's "hypnotic power?"
Hitler's inner circle (Goring, Goebbels, etc) were not hypnotized. They knew what they were doing. They knew and understood what Hitler was all about and saw their part in the glorious future of the Germany he spoke of and promised.
Charismatic and self assured individuals with a view of destiny (in desperate times), like Hitler, do not need to use some kind of hypnosis to gather around them loyal followers.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/8/2008 9:07:39 PM >
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 9:42:13 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
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I do not CONDOME or ENDORSE hypnotism. But, it is UNDENIABLE that is it WIDELY used by mainstream therapists and even dentists.
If as you seem to have just stated, you do not believe in it at all, then why do these PROFFESIONALS contiue to practice it and those agreeing to have it used on them claim that it worked?
It seems to me that the first order of business for you is to do some study on your own to prove or disprove you OWN theory that there is no power in hypnosis. Perhaps you haven't looked closely enough. Or, as you are in this discussion, have always approached the topic with a closed mind.
I can sympathize with that because I have always believed that any Christian should NEVER allow themselves to be hypnotized. But, what I didn't appreciate is that it can happen WITHOUT our consent. And, THAT is the reason for this thread.
The old saying goes, "Knowledge is power." And, that is true if we are to defend ourselves against those that would unethically use hypnotic techniques on us IF THAT POWER EXISTS. My research, right now, is to see if that power does or does not exist and how it might play a role in the marketplace of ideas.
The National Federaltion of Neurological Programming has a website. Here is an article on their web site that purports to compare and comtrast two leaders that they say used NLP techniques and how those techniques were used.
These are certainly people that make their livihoods on the premise that NLP works. So, if anyone should be able to spot techniques it should be them.
But, if you REALLY want to truly understand Hitler and NLP then THIS PAPER is invaluable. I have to warn you, it's not for the faint hearted. If you are just casual hit & run type of poster, then this won't be your cup of tea. You have to dig deep to get to the meat in this link. It's in English; but, it's a German site for The Linzer Academy of NLP.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
I GET IT. You are a big believer in the power of hypnosis. I am not.
....
Charismatic and self assured individuals with a view of destiny (in desperate times), like Hitler, do not need to use some kind of hypnosis to gather around them loyal followers.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/9/2008 12:39:36 AM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/8/2008 10:49:16 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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TMeeks,
You are starting to totally loosing me.
I have no idea what you were trying to prove with those two last links but I doubt they really support your arguement. The ability to work crowds and be a salesman of ideas does not, by any stretch of the imagination, support the notion that the speaker is using some kind of hypnosis. It just means he knows people and how to influence them.
Granted, I will conceded that on an individual basis hypnotism may work on specific people, for specific issues. It clearly does not work on a whole mass of people, even according to those responsible for some of the links you provided.
Repetion is not hypnosis, and I would argure that those constantly repeating an idea, a speech, or a commercial may change people's thinking over time. I seriously doubt that it can be easyily explained awy by calling it hypnosis. Brainwashing maybe, but not hypnosis.
A smart person who is not easily swayed would see through the repitious use of words, speeches, and commercials and turn it off mentally.
In any event I have come to the conclusion that it is time to end this discussion because I am getting tired of being insulted and put down for my opinions, and views.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/9/2008 12:32:42 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1957
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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You have absolutely NO basis for using the term 'Clearly' when refuting the notion that large groups of people can be mezmerized or hypnotized by an effective speaker that has mastered the art of Conversational Hypnosis or NLP. For, it is NOT so clear that this cannot occur.
Another assumption...
quote:
A smart person who is not easily swayed would see through the repitious use of words, speeches, and commercials and turn it off mentally.
This assumption simply cannot be made. Intelligence is not the critical factor. Alertness to the technique itself is the critical factor. I would suppose that the more intelligent one feels about themselves the more LIKELY they are candidates to be entranced for they would be more likely to try to analyze slow speech and thus fall victim to pacing.
This is from the first article...
quote:
"These last four points I feel underpin Hitler’s approach, his ability to trance the crowd out, the use of repetition and repetitive slogans that not only create trance but using slogans that act as anchors, anchors to create emotion and to deepen trance. Hitler also made most of his famous speeches late in the day when he was aware that people would be tired, less resistant and more susceptible to suggestion. Visually he was also forceful and constant in his use of Satir’s 'Leveller' hand gesture, often banging the lectern with his fists to enforce his point."
Your reply, fails to address these key points in the one article to which I linked. It's isn't mere repetition that they were talking about. It was a specific type of repetition that involved key elements of Conversational Hypnosis such as ANCHORING. Other paragraphs talk about PACING and LEADING. As you can see, these practitioners of Hypnosis see that Hitler, like some other speakers, employeed trance inducing speech patterns. It wasn't simply 'salemanship'.
The second article, which as I said, is quite deep, spreads out the explanation of Hitler's use of techniques that have come to be known as NLP. Here is one sentence that makes that assertion. Pacing and Leading, as I've learned, are NLP techniques.
quote:
The persuasion that he learned and developed in handling crowds, even large crowds of thousands, involved pacing the objections he knew that they would have against his argument and using them in the service of persuasion. He did that by pacing and leading.
...
Hitler also seemed to have a natural intuition about how to "read" a crowd and calibrate to their ongoing feedback so as to pace them for the purpose of then leading.
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Did you catch some of his fundamental frames in that passage? Hitler recognized the value of inducing very strong primitive states (primordial states) in people. He believed that such states were easily understandable by the common people and that such would give them a fanatical drive and obedience to him.
The last statement of that quotation by Hitler also reflects the principle that later came to be know in NLP as, "The meaning of your communication is the response you get." And if you want to fire the soul of the masses, you judge your speech by the response you get.
So, I cannot see how you came to believe that these did NOT support the argument that Hitler was using more than simple pursuasion. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your biases; but, that's the way it is.
But, in actuality, this tread is not about Hitler. It is about techniques that Hitler might used instinctively; but, that have been not only refined; but, have become widely available in the form of many different books, CDs and videos. I would much rather discuss the potential that an unethical leader might try and succeed at using these techniques. That's far more useful.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
TMeeks,
You are starting to totally loosing me.
I have no idea what you were trying to prove with those two last links but I doubt they really support your arguement. The ability to work crowds and be a salesman of ideas does not, by any stretch of the imagination, support the notion that the speaker is using some kind of hypnosis. It just means he knows people and how to influence them.
Granted, I will conceded that on an individual basis hypnotism may work on specific people, for specific issues. It clearly does not work on a whole mass of people, even according to those responsible for some of the links you provided.
Repetion is not hypnosis, and I would argure that those constantly repeating an idea, a speech, or a commercial may change people's thinking over time. I seriously doubt that it can be easyily explained awy by calling it hypnosis. Brainwashing maybe, but not hypnosis.
A smart person who is not easily swayed would see through the repitious use of words, speeches, and commercials and turn it off mentally.
In any event I have come to the conclusion that it is time to end this discussion because I am getting tired of being insulted and put down for my opinions, and views.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/9/2008 12:38:59 AM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/9/2008 9:40:46 PM
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