Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so.. what is it?
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Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so.. w... - 11/13/2008 5:58:37 PM
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jbow
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From: Dixie
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If the unsaced are dead in sin and enemies of God do they have a conscience? Do they feel convicted for sin? If they do, why and how?
Is it just a fear of being caught? How is our inner man that convicts us of sin different from a conscience of an unsaved person.
I guess I could come up with some verses to answer this but I am interested in what you have to say, in your opinion and in what you think scripture says.
Thanks,
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/13/2008 6:11:23 PM
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whitepoodle
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quote:
If the unsaced are dead in sin and enemies of God do they have a conscience? Do they feel convicted for sin? If they do, why and how?
John the Baptist called on everyone to repent yet they were unsaved. Since they must have known there must be something to repent from they must have had a conscience.
I think the phrase "dead in their sins" is not meant in a literal sense. Do you think only saved folks are capable of doing good deeds?
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/13/2008 6:19:29 PM
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jbow
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From: Dixie
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quote:
Do you think only saved folks are capable of doing good deeds?
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/13/2008 7:18:51 PM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
If the unsaced are dead in sin and enemies of God do they have a conscience? Do they feel convicted for sin? If they do, why and how?
Rom 2:14,15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.
:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.
quote:
Is it just a fear of being caught? How is our inner man that convicts us of sin different from a conscience of an unsaved person. It's not just fear of being caught.
There is no diference, only sinners do not think they need forgiven of going against their conscience, nor do they have faith in Christ to forgive them of their offence.
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 11/13/2008 7:43:30 PM >
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/13/2008 7:30:15 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
Do you think only saved folks are capable of doing good deeds?
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
Where do you get the idea that Christian good deeds are tainted with sin? Also where do you get the idea that the deeds of the unsaved are wholly evil?
Maybe I'm living on a different world but I know many unsaved Police Officers and when they arrest a perp it is a good thing. There is nothing evil about that. When a unsaved person gives me something to eat, that is not evil. When an unsaved person gives an organ to a person in need of one that is not evil. When an unsaved mother feeds her child who is hungry that is not evil. I sure you get the idea by now.
To say that all needs of every unsaved person is wholly evil is to make a statement that is not a Biblical thought.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/13/2008 7:44:25 PM
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LCannon
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Even the most pagan(or agnostic)feels a responsibility to something outside himself whether it's called conscience, guilt or apathy.
Romans 10:1-'Brethren, my desire and prayer to God is their salvation 2 but their zeal for God is misplaced. 3 Trapped in their sacrifices and dismissing Jesus’ righteousness they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God 4 and appropriate Christ’s Victory over the sacrifice of the law so that righteousness is available in obedience...14 [For]there’s no shame in ignorance even without the witness of the Law, heard or not, but how did they hear?...17 Faith comes from hearing and accepting Christ’s message of sacrifice and Victory in obedience not form. 18 The imagination of the Law covenant demands justice and by that justice it will be judged [and] indeed, “…a voice has gone out into all the earth and their words to the ends of the world."'
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only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 9:12:28 AM
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tomhillbilly
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here is a jim-dandy scripture from jesus (matthew chpt 12 vs 50) "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother".
Quick story about an atheist friend of mine. im 36 now and we've known and interracted with each other with varying frequency over the years. During our associations he has helped me with a few small things like driving a car for me i bought and particularly has went out of his way many times to help me maintain my computers over the years, all in the true spirit of friendship and charity. I have returned these things with various deeds and help at times when he needed it. While i quote jesus and use the bible as my reason for fair dealings with people he says "good is its own reward" and makes referance to kharma and buddhism.
We discuss religion and a variety of other things still today, but we stay reasonable and dont "push" our views on each other.
My big point is that unless some crazy whacko atheist pagan does not understand and/or doesnt respect peoples religious freedom, or worst case wants and/or tries to force churches into marrying homosexuals,for example then "whoever is not against us is for us" - jesus
Ill check and post which scripture this is
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 10:33:31 AM
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whitepoodle
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quote:
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
Then again i ask why did John the Baptist call for folks to repent before the Holy Spirit came down in mass.
And in context "only God is good" clearly the word "good" means "perfect" thus humans are imperfect verses God's perfection yet this imperfection did'nt stop John for asking repentance from them.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 11:50:01 AM
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HardKnox
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Diolectic's Rom. 2 would be a leading passage for me as well. Also, we know by observation that unbelievers have some since of right and wrong. The use of the world "instinct" shows that it is a part of their created being. Conscience is, essentially, the residue of the polluted image of God in men.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 3:08:43 PM
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bob97
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How do we explain a sociopath? The classic description is no moral social conscience.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 6:17:12 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
How do we explain a sociopath? The classic description is no moral social conscience.
Bob
They have a moral social conscience. They just ignore it. Over time it becomes so callous they can do whatever easier and easier.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 7:53:56 PM
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facedown
Posts: 833
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From: the urban desert
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quote:
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
what does this mean to you...practically speaking?
that say, when an "unsaved" person incarnates an act of love, say....selflessly lays down his life for another...that not only the act, but the motive is inherently and wholly "evil"?
doesn't this suggest an entire perspective based on assumptions that really cannot be made? for one, it assumes who is "saved" and who is "evil". secondly, by consequence, it demands that everything a "saved" person does is "good", even if it appears otherwise to "evil people".
it seems, from the teachings of jesus, that we encounter him in and through the 'other' not to mention passages such as romans 10:20
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 8:02:23 PM
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AbbyGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
Do you think only saved folks are capable of doing good deeds?
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
Where do you get the idea that Christian good deeds are tainted with sin? Also where do you get the idea that the deeds of the unsaved are wholly evil?
Maybe I'm living on a different world but I know many unsaved Police Officers and when they arrest a perp it is a good thing. There is nothing evil about that. When a unsaved person gives me something to eat, that is not evil. When an unsaved person gives an organ to a person in need of one that is not evil. When an unsaved mother feeds her child who is hungry that is not evil. I sure you get the idea by now.
To say that all needs of every unsaved person is wholly evil is to make a statement that is not a Biblical thought.
I think you have made a very good point here.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/14/2008 8:42:47 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
If the unsaved are dead in sin and enemies of God do they have a conscience?
Yes. See Romans 2:13-16. To be "dead in sins and trespasses" is to be spiritually dead, but with a fully operational conscience.
quote:
Do they feel convicted for sin?
Perhaps less of "sin" and more of morality.
quote:
If they do, why and how?
Because God's moral Law is "written in their hearts" and the function of the conscience is to make men uneasy when they break that Law.
quote:
Is it just a fear of being caught?
Partly. Partly it is also the sub-conscious or conscious knowledge that they will give account to God.
quote:
How is our inner man that convicts us of sin different from a conscience of an unsaved person.
The indwelling Holy Spirit convicts the believer through a heightened awareness of sin rather than merely morality. The believer knows that Christ died for his sins, and that sin separates us from God. The believer who persists in sinning cannot have fellowship with a holy God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/15/2008 10:18:42 AM
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rcjames
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The Holy Soirit works to convict (Reprove -KJV) the world of sin.
(Joh 16:8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(Joh 16:9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
So maybe what some are calling a conscience is the conviction (Reproof) of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/15/2008 11:07:22 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 782
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quote:
ORIGINAL: face-downquote:
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
what does this mean to you...practically speaking?
that say, when an "unsaved" person incarnates an act of love, say....selflessly lays down his life for another...that not only the act, but the motive is inherently and wholly "evil"?
doesn't this suggest an entire perspective based on assumptions that really cannot be made? for one, it assumes who is "saved" and who is "evil". secondly, by consequence, it demands that everything a "saved" person does is "good", even if it appears otherwise to "evil people".
it seems, from the teachings of Jesus, that we encounter him in and through the 'other' not to mention passages such as Romans 10:20 I don't know if the person who wrote that was Calvinist, but, it come from a Calvinist view about "total depravity"
They would say that all the "unregenerate" people can not do anything truly good because it is not done out of faith.
This comes from the last part of the verse Rom 14:23 for whatever is not of faith is sin..
Since the "unregenerate" has no faith to do anything from, his acts of good are truly evil, which is a Calvinist over emphasizing the word sinful.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/15/2008 12:14:43 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1834
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quote:
I like what you have said here, and agree with it. But what about those people who have hardened their hearts toward God? Do you think God removes His guiding influence from their lives after a while?
Abby:
God is extremely "longsuffering" in that He is extremely patient with sinners. But after the Holy Spirit has spoken numerous times to an individual, and that sinner has not repented and believed God, God removes His "guiding influence" from their lives. Notice what Christ said about the Jewish religious leaders who refused to believe on Him:
"By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: for this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed..." (Mt. 13:14,15).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/15/2008 5:54:59 PM
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jbow
Posts: 631
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
Do you think only saved folks are capable of doing good deeds?
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
Yes I do. I think the Bible says that only God is good and I think that only things done in obedience to the Spirit are good and even those 'good deeds' done by Christians are tainted with sin... but all deeds of the unsaved are not only tainted but wholly evil. They only appear to be good to us.
Where do you get the idea that Christian good deeds are tainted with sin? Also where do you get the idea that the deeds of the unsaved are wholly evil?
Maybe I'm living on a different world but I know many unsaved Police Officers and when they arrest a perp it is a good thing. There is nothing evil about that. When a unsaved person gives me something to eat, that is not evil. When an unsaved person gives an organ to a person in need of one that is not evil. When an unsaved mother feeds her child who is hungry that is not evil. I sure you get the idea by now.
To say that all needs of every unsaved person is wholly evil is to make a statement that is not a Biblical thought.
I think John Owen say's it well. It is in olde english but it way's it well...
Sin doth not only still abide in us, but is still acting, still labouring to bring forth the deeds of the flesh. When sin lets us alone we may let sin alone; but as sin is never less quiet than when it seems to be most quiet, and its waters are for the most part deep when they are still, so ought our contrivances against it to be vigorous at all times and in all conditions, even where there is least suspicion. Sin doth not only abide in us, but "the law of the members is still rebelling against the law of the mind," Rom. 7:23; and "the spirit that dwells in us lusteth to envy," James 4:5. It is always in continual work; "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit," Gal. 5:17; lust is still tempting and conceiving sin, James 1:14; in every moral action it is always either inclining to evil, or hindering from that which is good, or disframing the spirit from communion with God. It inclines to evil. "The evil which I would not, that I do," saith the apostle, Rom. 7:19. Whence is that? Why, "Because in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing." And it hinders from good: "The good that I would do, that I do not," verse 19;-- "Upon the same account, either I do it not, or not as I should; all my holy things being defiled by this sin." "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would," Gal. 5:17. And it unframes our spirit, and thence is called "The sin that so grievous complaints that the apostle makes of it, Romans 7. So that sin is always acting, always conceiving, always seducing and tempting. Who can say that he had ever any thing to do with God or for God, that indwelling sin had not a hand in the corrupting of what he did? And this trade will it drive more or less all our days. If, then, sin will be always acting, if we be not always mortifying, we are lost creatures. He that stands still and suffers his enemies to double blows upon him without resistance, will undoubtedly be conquered in the issue. If sin be subtle, watchful, strong, and always at work in the business of killing our souls, and we be slothful, negligent, foolish, in proceeding to the ruin thereof, can we expect a comfortable event? There is not a day but sin foils or is foiled, prevails or is prevailed on; and it will be so whilst we live in this world.
I shall discharge him from this duty who can bring sin to a composition, to a cessation of arms in this warfare; if it will spare him any one day, in any one duty (provided he be a person that is acquainted with the spirituality of obedience and the subtlety of sin), let him say to his soul, as to this duty, "Soul, take thy rest." The saints, whose souls breathe after deliverance from its perplexing rebellion, know there is no safety against it but in a constant warfare.
Diolectic is correct. I am not a hyper-Calvinist by any means but I do believe in the total depravity of man. I believe we have "indwelling sin" that colors everything we do. However, the non-believer, is totally corrupt and unable to do anything good. Some actions may appear good and may be good in a sense, they may accomplish the will of God but... only God is good and only what He does is truly good.
The heart of man is twisted and deceptive. We so easily deceive ourselves. We know that we don't know someone else's heart. What most of us don't realize is that we don't know our own heart either. We only know what God reveals to us about our heart. Over time He shows us things about our heart. As we mature we learn that we are more wicked than we thought we were and life becomes a continual repentance as God points out something else in our heart. As long as we are in this life we will have to deal with the enemy within, with the flesh. Only Jesus had a perfect walk. Our walk is always tainted by the flesh but "His grace is sufficient for us". We are ever dependent on Christ for our righteousness because we have none of our own.
Good and bad are not defined by the action, but by the root. Jesus never sinned because He had no root of sin in Him so everything He did was righteous. The non-believer has not root of righteousness and therefore can do no good. Jesus was clear... He said, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." The unregenerate has no access to God and cannot do "good".
If man had the ability to do good, it would be theoritically possible for a man to keep the law for justification, but he does not and he cannot.
That is what I believe and why.
Like I said, i'm not a hyper-calvinist and not even a 5-point calvinist but I see the truth to some of it.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/15/2008 6:39:22 PM
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Theo-Minor
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That was a nice quote, but a lot of the scriptures are taken out of context. In fact, if read IN context, they say almost the complete opposite of what that person was trying to demonstrate. And it is all pointedly summed up by John in 1 John. Because we are born of the Spirit, we are unable to sin.
Take that as you will, whether literally to mean that we aren't capable at all, or psuedo-metaphorically to mean that it is no longer in our nature to sin. Nevertheless, we can't sin because we have been born of the Spirit. And that's precisely what and how it reads in context.
Paul also addresses the issue extensively, saying that we are no longer servants to sin. We died to sin. Etc.
In the words of Paul, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/18/2008 2:33:39 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
I don't know if the person who wrote that was Calvinist, but, it come from a Calvinist view about "total depravity"
They would say that all the "unregenerate" people can not do anything truly good because it is not done out of faith.
This comes from the last part of the verse Rom 14:23 for whatever is not of faith is sin..
Since the "unregenerate" has no faith to do anything from, his acts of good are truly evil, which is a Calvinist over emphasizing the word sinful.
Dio,
I'm a Calvinist and your interpretation doesn't get any peer review in my circles. Total Depravity deals with corruption (the mixture of inextricable good and evil in all parts of man (hence the total). It isn't the evil that is total, it is the corruption. We believe sinful men can do good, but their good is mingled with evil. We actually believe that saints cannot do perfect good, but that their works are covered in Christ's righteousness and are graciously bade good by faith in his perfect obedience. The only difference between our works and the sinners is Christ.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/18/2008 3:07:49 PM
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jbow
Posts: 631
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
I don't know if the person who wrote that was Calvinist, but, it come from a Calvinist view about "total depravity"
They would say that all the "unregenerate" people can not do anything truly good because it is not done out of faith.
This comes from the last part of the verse Rom 14:23 for whatever is not of faith is sin..
Since the "unregenerate" has no faith to do anything from, his acts of good are truly evil, which is a Calvinist over emphasizing the word sinful.
Dio,
I'm a Calvinist and your interpretation doesn't get any peer review in my circles. Total Depravity deals with corruption (the mixture of inextricable good and evil in all parts of man (hence the total). It isn't the evil that is total, it is the corruption. We believe sinful men can do good, but their good is mingled with evil. We actually believe that saints cannot do perfect good, but that their works are covered in Christ's righteousness and are graciously bade good by faith in his perfect obedience. The only difference between our works and the sinners is Christ.
Thank you...
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/18/2008 5:49:47 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Dio,
I'm a Calvinist and your interpretation doesn't get any peer review in my circles. Total Depravity deals with corruption (the mixture of inextricable good and evil in all parts of man (hence the total). It isn't the evil that is total, it is the corruption. We believe sinful men can do good, but their good is mingled with evil. We actually believe that saints cannot do perfect good, but that their works are covered in Christ's righteousness and are graciously bade good by faith in his perfect obedience. The only difference between our works and the sinners is Christ.
if i am understanding your post correctly, it seems that as a calvininist you see no change in the nature of man between the unsaved and the saved? the only differnce being the work of Christ?
it seems as if you are saying that lost man sins and is capable of good, and i think we would agree that saved man sins and is capable of good. not that i see aproblem with that, but it seems different from what some calvinists i have talked with hold to.
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RE: Does an unsaved person have a conscience? and if so... - 11/19/2008 12:47:38 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
if i am understanding your post correctly, it seems that as a calvininist you see no change in the nature of man between the unsaved and the saved? the only differnce being the work of Christ?
it seems as if you are saying that lost man sins and is capable of good, and i think we would agree that saved man sins and is capable of good. not that i see aproblem with that, but it seems different from what some calvinists i have talked with hold to.
No. I was dealing with a specific context defining the doctrine of sin and the Fall, not the ontological anthropology between the regenerate and the unregenerate. That's a different category and if I didn't deal with it, one should not assume that I'm out of accord with Covenant Theology. The good lost men can do is not perfectly good and is not acceptable good. But it isn't absolute evil either. The vestige of God's image still exists and that image is good, though polluted.
The only difference between the believer and the unbeliever is the work of Christ. That includes both imputation of righteousness (which covers our sin) and spiritual enabling grace (resurrection and the Holy Spirit) which gives us the quickened ability to progressively obey and do good works. Our good works improve, but are never perfect, yet they are acceptable works based on grace through faith in Jesus. So the "only" difference is a huge "only".
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